Former Military President, General
Ibrahim Badamosi Babangida may go down in the history of Nigeria as the most
loved yet most hated leader to ever rule Africa's most populous nation. Such paradox marks him out as an
intriguing personality who remains a reference point in the political circle
more than two decades after he 'stepped aside' from Aso Rock in controversial
circumstances.
In this rare encounter with the Zero
Tolerance (ZT) Team of WILSON UWUJAREN, TONY ORILADE, WILLIAMS OSEGHALE, AISHA
MOHAMMED and FRANKLYN OGUNLEYE, at his Hill Top mansion in Minna, Niger
State, the enigmatic leader offers rare reminisces on his leadership of
the country and attempts a prognosis on the myriad challenges that buffet the
Nigerian State. Excerpts:
Let us congratulate you on your
73rd birthday
Thank you for reminding me that I
am an old man
At 73, do you feel accomplished?
First of all, I need to thank God
for having attained this age, at remarkably good health still talking and
moving. I remain grateful to God, brothers, friends, colleagues and Nigerians
generally for all the goodwill.
Any regrets?
So far, the emphatic answer is, no!
Looking back in the last 73 years,
what will you say has been your greatest achievement and contribution to this
country?
Seriously speaking, my generation
came at a time when Nigeria was just trying to be on its feet. I went into the
military service in 1962, Nigeria was just about two years old and it had the
problems of a developing nation, what they need to go through and so on. So, we
were witnesses to this development and I think, one should be able to quantify
his contributions based on that period, what we had been doing. I think it was
very fulfilling and rewarding.
Why did you choose to go into the
military at that time?
There was a drive to get students
or people from this part of the country so as to balance the officer corps of
the armed forces; so there was a deliberate drive to recruit officers from this
part of the country and I was fortunate that the minister for the army happened
to be from this part of the country. So one of his first recruitment drives was
to come to our school; he talked to us and gave reasons why we should join the
military. Then, we saw some demonstration by General Yakubu Gowon; he was a
captain at that time, a lot of us got excited. We applied and were recruited.
If not the military, where else
would you have been?
My original thought was to be a
civil engineer but when this military thing came, I jettisoned that and went in
for the military.
EFCC is eleven years old now, what
is your assessment of the Commission?
Well, I think EFCC has done
remarkably well because it came at a time when this country needed an
organization that should check the scourge of corruption and the rest of it. I
think it came at the right time. I took quite an interest to know how the
Commission operates, especially under the present leadership. I believe they
are achieving good result. I was reading in the media some of the prosecutions
and convictions recorded and I think I am impressed as they have been doing
everything in accordance with the law.
Like everything new, the Commission
experienced some teething problems. First of all, the public needed to
understand what it was trying to do but I understand what the Commission is
doing now. It is very civil, you don't condemn people, you investigate, you
establish facts and so on. This is what is happening now and I think the fact
that anybody is innocent until proven guilty is what you are doing now. I think
this is good for this country.
Despite all the efforts, Nigeria
continues to be ranked as one of the most corrupt countries, what will you say
is responsible for the high level of corruption in this country?
The fact that the corruption index
says Nigeria is highly corrupt is quite subjective. A lot of us have had lots
of experience in other countries; generally every country has the problem of
corruption in various forms. I think what we need to do is to do the little we
did when we were in office, try to find out the source of corruption and then
block it.
Back in 1986, Cooperative Boards as
we knew them then was an institution bedeviled by corrupt practices. An
ordinary farmer brings his products, the board is there to assess it as either
grade one, two or three. A lot of things went wrong, so what we did was to
encourage the farmer to go to the end users, negotiate. The end user will also
inspect what you have. So the farmer is talking to you directly, no middle man
or anything because the corruption starts where the middle man is.
Once you have identified areas that
are prone to corruption, the next thing is to eliminate them and get the
people educated. In the case of foreign exchange for example, you needed to go
to the Central Bank or to the banks before you could get foreign currencies but
by establishing the bureau de change, you could walk in there, exchange the
money and put it in your pocket, go on with your business and you are not
robbing anybody.
One of the things to avoid,
especially in government institutions, is too much control, where there is a
lot of control corruption easily manifest itself. So you look at where there is
a lot of control, try to do away with it and then things will work for the
people.
The military regimes before you,
Murtala Mohammed/Olusegun Obasanjo and General Muhammadu Buhari/Tunde Idiagbon
had programmes that frontally tackled corruption. Will you say your government
fought corruption?
Well, we had different approaches;
I think my government was able to identify corruption prone areas and checked
them. If you remember in this country, there were things they call essential
commodities. These are also sources of corruption; you go and buy Omo or food
or whatever it is and we got government to take its hands off such activities.
Let people use their own brains, hands and labour, nobody has to do it for
them. So we did but I am proud to say that was much more effective.
I don't have the facts but if what
I read in the papers is currently what is happening then I think we were
angels.
I asked that question against the
background that during the Buhari administration, there was War Against
Indiscipline, you didn't have a programme like that. You came in and the
programme died as it were. Why didn't you put up something similar to deal with
corruption, knowing that corruption was very prevalent?
Because I was learning from the
mistake of those before me. If you take for example the War Against
Indiscipline, they were teaching you how to queue, to say sorry when you march
somebody! It hasn't solved anything. It was trying to make you to be civil in
your approach to things. Ok, I accepted I am going to queue before I get into a
car but I might have bribed somebody before I got a ticket to go into the
vehicle. We tried not to fall into the same trap, by tackling the source and
making corrections in those places.
You described yourself as an angel
when you ruled this country. Sadly people tend to remember your regime as
institutionalizing corruption in Nigeria.
Yeah, I know. Maybe I have to
accept that but anybody with a sense of fairness has no option but to call us
saints. I give you example, in a year I was making less than seven billion
dollars in oil revenue. In the same period there are governments that are
making 200 to 300 billion dollars. With seven billion, I did the little I could
achieve; with 200 billion there is still a lot to be achieved.
You are not looking at the
benchmark, what was the value of Naira to the dollar then and what is it today?
When I left office, it was 22 Naira
to the dollar. Now, it is 162 and is not my making, I left it at 22, official
rate.
When you came into office, the Naira and the dollar were almost at par, so what happened that triggered the
massive devaluation of the Naira under your watch?
The world is changing economically
and if you want to compete with the industries around the world, you have to
moderate your currency and what we did was in accordance with the development
in the world at that time. The first time when it became one dollar to four Naira, we almost went crazy, all of us in the military but then we were
learning. Our economy should not be oblivious of what is happening in the
outside world and we wanted to compete effectively with other countries.
All the same, we were able to keep
it down to 22. When I left, it went up to 85. Abacha was good; he kept it
between 85 and 90.
In terms of accounting for resource
earnings, we can remember that during your regime, there was also this Gulf War
and Nigeria earned a lot of money. What happened to the Gulf War oil windfall?
First of all, that war lasted 3
months, about ninety something days; it didn't last up to a year. So get that
fact straight. Secondly, the oil price at that time was below 18 dollars per
barrel, so there is no way you could make 12.4 billion in 3 months. We couldn't
have made that amount of money but Pius Okigbo knew what he was doing.
He had brains and he said between
1986 or 1988 to 1994, monies that accrued to the federal government at that
time was about that money you are calling, windfall. He said so. It is there in
his book. Then the other thing he said, the monies could have gone into
generative investment. I am not an economist, but I have an understanding of
what this is. Our argument then was if you have the money why keep it and be
looking at it when you have a lot of things that will benefit the ordinary man.
So that money was not stolen.
Where is it?
It is what you see now in the
country, Thank God most of the infrastructures we put in place are what you are
using today and proudly so.
What are these infrastructures you
are talking about?
Abuja for example, I built Abuja.
Today we have a brand new capital, we used that money. I gave you a third
mainland bridge, Lagos, you cannot build it now for all the money Nigeria is
making. And what did it cost me? 500. 600, 700 million Naira. For the first
time, a dual carriage way was seen in the northern part of the country between
Kaduna and Kano and then linked it up from Abuja.
You cannot afford to do it
now, you cannot even afford to touch it because there are a lot of competing
needs. You have to put money in education, armed forces infrastructural
development, you have to put money in transportation; there are a lot of
competing demands.
You talked about Abuja being a
brand new city. Surprisingly, the city is perhaps the only modern capital
without a rail transport system. How come you never thought of building a rail
system or was it not part of the master plan?
You have got good roads. But the advantages
of the rail over road are quite obvious as it is cheaper and can move more
people per time. The first standard
gauge railway was established during our regime. If you ever travel, just go to
a place called Itakpe, there is a rail track linking it to Delta. It is a
standard gauge railway. So we put these things where we thought the country
will benefit from it.
If as you said, you did so
well, why then is the perception that your government and your person are the
most corrupt in Nigeria?
Well, you gladly use the word
perception, and it is said that perception is not reality. Why the perception? I
should ask you, because it is the perception of the media.
Are you worried?
No, and you know why? Because now a
lot of people can reflect; you believed quite wrongly that we are all crooks
and I bear no grudge whatsoever against anybody but I know time will come when
they will say after all, they did something and this is what is happening. Now,
even our fiercest critics give us credit for certain things we did.
You are regarded as one of the
wealthiest Nigerians living, how did you make your money?
Well, that is if you believe I have
the money. This is not a perception. If you
give me some facts, throw it and say this is it then I have cause to explain.
But I know who I am and what I represent, I know what values I stand for. A lot
of us will not make such stupid mistakes.
What are the investments of IBB?
Let me tell you something, maybe
you have a hand in it, I have been the most investigated president Nigeria has
ever had. By now somebody should have come forward to say here it is. Every
government that came after me investigated me because of that perception.
Because they wanted to retrieve the billions I stole. Unless you can tell me
that you haven't been very efficient in your investigation, that's your problem
and not mine.
We interviewed General Olusegun
Obasanjo and asked him how he makes his money and he told us that he is a big
time farmer. In your case, what do you do, how do you earn your money?
My pension (Laughs…)
What is your worth?
It is difficult. Worth in terms of Naira
and Kobo? I wish I could have shown you my bank account. My account officer
just left. I would be ashamed to say it so I won't say it.
What are your investments, what do
you do? Are you into telecoms?
No. The issue that I have stake in
a telecom company has been laid to rest for a long time. Globacom issued
a statement, nothing of that nature. Agreed they are good and doing well. I am
proud that they came up during our time but I am fairly an arrogant man, I
don't plead. If you are good and it is good for us, we say go ahead and do it.
So, no Globacom, no petroleum industry and I am not a farmer because I can't
farm.
You have Heritage Press?
Yeah, it hasn't been working very
well yet.
Are we to assume that outside
government you are not productive? Then how do you get by?
(Laughs), it doesn't mean that I am
not making money. Of course I have investments, no doubt about that.
What are these investments?
I would assure you using my head, I
came to one conclusion that the best investment for someone like me is banking,
that's all.
You have shares in banks?
Yes.
How many banks?
No, in one bank.
A major shareholder, sir?
Yes.
Which bank are we talking of …?
(cuts in) ..Again
investigate…laughs
We have observed a trend. Most
Nigeria leaders come into office not comfortable financially but by the time
they are leaving, they become billionaires. Why is it so?
Now you said most, let me tell you
on my own. When I got into office August of 1985 I made a declaration and it is
there on record what I had, what I possessed, everything and when I left not
much have changed.
Before I became president I was
living in this environment, nobody seems to remember that. I tried farming
before I became president, I failed. That's why I said am not going into that
field anymore. So it depends, I am not also sure that every president has left
office rich. I know they are not.
Apart from Generals Yakubu Gowon,
Muhammadu Buhari and may be Shehu Shagari, some people say every other
president left richer.
No. This is perception. Everyone
went there, served and left. I wouldn't say they left there richer than they
were when they came in.
We really wouldn't want to talk
about the dead, but is Abacha among the leaders you claim did not make money?
(cuts in)…ok talk about the living,
talk about me.
The circumstances surrounding your
emergence as military president in 1985, some people believe that it was more
of self preservation than national interest. Can you tell us what happened?
First of all we planned a coup
towards the end of 1983 that truncated the democratically elected government
and the military government came in January 1984. Then that government also
suffered the same fate as the democratic government when the military staged one
of the finest coups in this country, because there was no blood, nothing was
lost, smooth and everybody was treated with the most civility and our
administration came.
When we came in August of 1985 there was a plan to kick us
out in December 1985, it didn't work. They went into operation again in 1990. I
think the country was going through a phase at that time, it's a developing
country and we always had one reason or the other for doing what we did at that
time.
But the talk at that time was that
there was a rift between you and Buhari and he wanted to dismiss you from the
Army.
No, let me give you a lesson today.
A coup or change comes about if there is frustration in the society, just get
that right. There was frustration in the society between 1984 to 1985. The
ground was fertile for a coup. It wasn't fertile, thanks be to God, in
December, 1985 when the first attempt on me was made, neither was it fertile in
April 1990 when the second attempt was made and we had the support of all of
you sitting down here.
You write, you analyze, you talk, and you demonstrated.
It was not unusual then to hear, in the case of the democratically elected
government in1983, a common phrase was 'the worst military regime is better
than this government'. So you were giving us the impetus to stage a coup. We
are not dummies, if we didn't have the support of all of you, we wouldn't
venture into it.
We cannot end this interview
without talking about June 12…
Yes, it is a day in the history of
Nigeria and the day the most credible election was held, so what is your
question?
Why was it annulled?
We gave you a lot of reasons but I
understood the passion, at that time everybody was fed up, the sentiment was,
just pack your things and go. Our thought process is very limited. First of
all, on June 23, 1993, I was on the air, and I told Nigerians why we had to do
what we did, but I was sensible enough to know that whatever I said nobody was
interested. So the important thing is get out. I hate to say it but, when
we annulled June 12, the same Nigerians supported the intervention of the
Military, true or false?
True because you saw it, you are
old enough; all those who fought for June 12, ended up serving the Military
Government they didn't like and that perpetuated a longer stay of the military
in government.
When you were leaving government
you used the phrase 'stepping aside.' Why did you choose to use that phase?
Every one of you thought that I was
not keeping pace with the Nigerian dream. We have a tradition in the military,
if you are marching in a column, when they say left, you should obey the
command. If you right foot, somebody will shout at you because you are
affecting the column, you should step aside so that the column will continue
that was what I did.
What's your philosophy in life?
To be at peace with myself and
other human beings.
And your values …?
Oh that one is a lot. I told you
earlier when we were talking about the stupendous wealth, I told you I
know who I am. I know what I represent, I know my background so there are
things I wouldn't do.
What are these things?
(Laughs), I wouldn't steal and I
don't have business to fight you even if you are abusing me. This is still part
of what I believe in. I will always forgive you because if we offend God
he forgives, so why should I hold anything against anybody.
Why then was it difficult to
forgive your bosom friend, late General Mamman Vatsa?
Because others before him faced the
same law, the only change in that law was introduced by us to give room for
appeal. If I was involved in that coup and it flopped, I would have been shot
too. So it is the application of the law but then it is painful. We made the
law, others suffered the consequences.
As military president, you had the
power to commute the death sentence to jail term?
But all those that were shot dead
were shot under a military regime.
You have a beautiful mansion here;
anybody would like to live in this kind of house. We understand that it is a
souvenir from a contractor. Whoever that contractor is, I think he should have
gone to jail, to give this as a souvenir.
I told you I was living in this environment
before I became the president. I built a house here when I was Chief of Army
Staff. If I open the window for you, you will see a very beautiful house
just behind us. That is where I started and then kept on moving up to this
place.
But you got this place after you
left office?
I started building it in 1991, took
2 to 3 years so that by the time I finished I would have a house to sleep in.
What is the value of the property?
Now, or then?
Now
I cannot estimate because it has
appreciated.
Then?
I know what my friends spent.
Your friends built it for you?
No, my friends contributed.
You have good friends?
Yes I have.
Were they your friends before you
went into government?
They were friends before we came
into government and friends while I was in government.
Source:
October-December, 2014 edition of Zero Tolerance, the magazine of Nigeria’s
Economic and Financial Crimes Commission (EFCC).
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